SNP MSPs have been called to order for repeatedly shouting down senior Whitehall officials over controversial benefit changes.
Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) bosses were told they live in a Kafkaesque Alice In Wonderland fantasy and their evidence dismissed as "nonsense" and "claptrap" by SNP MSPs on Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee.
Convener Michael McMahon, a Labour MSP, repeatedly reigned in SNP MSPs for shouting dismissive remarks while officials were giving evidence.
MSPs took particular exception to a new policy that deducts housing benefit from claimants with spare bedrooms, dubbed the bedroom tax.
DWP strategy director Pete Searle acknowledged that many councils and housing associations say they have a shortage of one bedroom houses but insisted that "there are properties there" for tenants who want to downsize to avoid the spare room subsidy.
"This policy has been on the books since 2010. It's been a long time in the arrival so there's been plenty of time to prepare for it," he said.
SNP MSP Linda Fabiani, a former housing association director, interrupted: "Ach, that's nonsense."
Mr McMahon said: "Linda, I can understand your frustration but I don't think that helps."
Ms Fabiani continued: "Jeezo — for goodness sake."
Mr Searle returned to his point, saying there are ways that social housing tenants can respond to the subsidy, including moving to a smaller house where available, getting a job or increasing their hours, taking a lodger or moving into private sector accommodation.
Ms Fabiani interrupted again: "Why don't you just give them all tents?"
Mr McMahon said: "Linda, I don't think it's appropriate to be talking over them."
Ms Fabiani replied: "Well, I don't think this is appropriate."
Mr McMahon said: "I can understand your frustration Linda but I think if we can keep order, we can get through the questions and you will get an opportunity to ask a supplementary if you want. But I don't think shouting across the witnesses is helpful."
SNP MSP Annabel Ewing suggested Mr Searle's evidence was drawn from Alice In Wonderland, insisting that there are just 16,000 socially rented properties available in Scotland against 105,000 people affected by the spare room subsidy.
"I don't know how you get that to square up," she said.
"And the idea that because it's been on the books since 2010: were we supposed to magic up thousands of houses when we had a 25% cut in our capital budget from the Westminster Government?
"And to suggest perhaps to an older woman living by herself that she should take in a lodger as a matter of state intervention, frankly I find that insulting."
Mr Searle said: "The DWP's estimates there are about 80,000 people affected, so I'm not quite sure about the basis for the 105,000. There were 24,000 one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector."
SNP MSP Kevin Stewart interrupted: "Yes, but there's a very important point here."
Mr McMahon intervened again, saying: "Kevin, Mr Earle is trying to make a point. I'll let you back into ask questions but I don't think interrupting people in the middle of their response will help us to move the discussion forward."
During his later supplementary, Mr Stewart said: "Regarding Mr Searle's comments about one-bedroom properties available, I have to say I have never heard so much claptrap in my life.
"It shows quite clearly that many folks have not had experience of housing in this country. I can understand why Ms Fabiani has been so upset as a former housing professional."
Many of the 24,000 socially rented houses are either sheltered, very sheltered or amenity housing for let to specific individuals such as elderly or severely disabled people, he said.
Mr Searle said: "A proportion certainly would have been but I suspect a small minority."
Mr Stewart said: "I would imagine if you go and do your homework you will find it is probably a very large proportion."
Mr McMahon interjected to suggest that the DWP come back with evidence of the exact proportions before any conclusions are drawn.
MSPs also took exception to the DWP's work capability assessment which tests claimants on their level of disability and potential suitability for work.
Ms Ewing said: "We have had evidence from at least two witnesses who have been tested on their ability or otherwise to lift an empty box from one part of the room to another. Could you explain to the committee why that is a determinant of anything in terms of replicating a useful function in a workplace?
"One of the witnesses giving evidence was blind."
DWP chief medical adviser Bill Gunnyeon said: "There may be other issues that may also affect their ability to work. Remember, being blind doesn't necessarily stop people working."
Ms Ewing interrupted: "But what is that useful to show?"
Mr Gunnyeon said: "I was going to come on to that. We're trying to use things that will test different aspects of functions and whether somebody is able to reach and stretch. Lifting tests movement at different joints and muscle groups rather than testing strength."
Ms Ewing said: "I think we're entering a kind of Kafkaesque world of the DWP where we talk about benefits of moving empty boxes around a room."
Deputy convener Jamie Hepburn, an SNP MSP, said: "Perhaps all of these empty boxes will be utilised for all these people that will have to move out under the so-called bedroom tax."
The committee hearing is the latest instance of MSPs being censured for overstepping the bounds of parliamentary debate.
Mr McMahon was suspended from Holyrood for a day for shouting "you're out of order" at Presiding Officer Tricia Marwick as she attempted to bring the chamber to order.
Labour MSP Helen Eadie was also ordered to "desist" from accusations that European and External Affairs Committee convener Christina McKelvie was trying to "gag" her from raising questions about an independent Scotland's future in the European Union.
Scottish Conservative MSP Alex Johnstone, a member of the welfare committee, said: “I was astonished at the increasingly churlish behaviour of some of the SNP MSPs at today’s committee.
“They were loudly interjecting and barracking the Whitehall officials and generally throwing their toys out of the pram. They displayed nothing but intolerance and discourtesy towards those from the DWP, who at all times provided them with detailed answers to their questions.
“It was a pathetic and puerile performance that was not worthy of any parliament let alone Holyrood. What we witnessed today was the veneer of civility stripped away from the SNP to expose the nasty side of a party that reacts badly and with poor grace to anyone who dares disagree with them.
“The behaviour of their MSPs is made all the worse by the fact they have offered no alternative proposals on how they would pay for benefits and pensions under separation.”
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Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) bosses were told they live in a Kafkaesque Alice In Wonderland fantasy and their evidence dismissed as "nonsense" and "claptrap" by SNP MSPs on Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee.
Convener Michael McMahon, a Labour MSP, repeatedly reigned in SNP MSPs for shouting dismissive remarks while officials were giving evidence.
MSPs took particular exception to a new policy that deducts housing benefit from claimants with spare bedrooms, dubbed the bedroom tax.
DWP strategy director Pete Searle acknowledged that many councils and housing associations say they have a shortage of one bedroom houses but insisted that "there are properties there" for tenants who want to downsize to avoid the spare room subsidy.
"This policy has been on the books since 2010. It's been a long time in the arrival so there's been plenty of time to prepare for it," he said.
SNP MSP Linda Fabiani, a former housing association director, interrupted: "Ach, that's nonsense."
Mr McMahon said: "Linda, I can understand your frustration but I don't think that helps."
Ms Fabiani continued: "Jeezo — for goodness sake."
Mr Searle returned to his point, saying there are ways that social housing tenants can respond to the subsidy, including moving to a smaller house where available, getting a job or increasing their hours, taking a lodger or moving into private sector accommodation.
Ms Fabiani interrupted again: "Why don't you just give them all tents?"
Mr McMahon said: "Linda, I don't think it's appropriate to be talking over them."
Ms Fabiani replied: "Well, I don't think this is appropriate."
Mr McMahon said: "I can understand your frustration Linda but I think if we can keep order, we can get through the questions and you will get an opportunity to ask a supplementary if you want. But I don't think shouting across the witnesses is helpful."
SNP MSP Annabel Ewing suggested Mr Searle's evidence was drawn from Alice In Wonderland, insisting that there are just 16,000 socially rented properties available in Scotland against 105,000 people affected by the spare room subsidy.
"I don't know how you get that to square up," she said.
"And the idea that because it's been on the books since 2010: were we supposed to magic up thousands of houses when we had a 25% cut in our capital budget from the Westminster Government?
"And to suggest perhaps to an older woman living by herself that she should take in a lodger as a matter of state intervention, frankly I find that insulting."
Mr Searle said: "The DWP's estimates there are about 80,000 people affected, so I'm not quite sure about the basis for the 105,000. There were 24,000 one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector."
SNP MSP Kevin Stewart interrupted: "Yes, but there's a very important point here."
Mr McMahon intervened again, saying: "Kevin, Mr Earle is trying to make a point. I'll let you back into ask questions but I don't think interrupting people in the middle of their response will help us to move the discussion forward."
During his later supplementary, Mr Stewart said: "Regarding Mr Searle's comments about one-bedroom properties available, I have to say I have never heard so much claptrap in my life.
"It shows quite clearly that many folks have not had experience of housing in this country. I can understand why Ms Fabiani has been so upset as a former housing professional."
Many of the 24,000 socially rented houses are either sheltered, very sheltered or amenity housing for let to specific individuals such as elderly or severely disabled people, he said.
Mr Searle said: "A proportion certainly would have been but I suspect a small minority."
Mr Stewart said: "I would imagine if you go and do your homework you will find it is probably a very large proportion."
Mr McMahon interjected to suggest that the DWP come back with evidence of the exact proportions before any conclusions are drawn.
MSPs also took exception to the DWP's work capability assessment which tests claimants on their level of disability and potential suitability for work.
Ms Ewing said: "We have had evidence from at least two witnesses who have been tested on their ability or otherwise to lift an empty box from one part of the room to another. Could you explain to the committee why that is a determinant of anything in terms of replicating a useful function in a workplace?
"One of the witnesses giving evidence was blind."
DWP chief medical adviser Bill Gunnyeon said: "There may be other issues that may also affect their ability to work. Remember, being blind doesn't necessarily stop people working."
Ms Ewing interrupted: "But what is that useful to show?"
Mr Gunnyeon said: "I was going to come on to that. We're trying to use things that will test different aspects of functions and whether somebody is able to reach and stretch. Lifting tests movement at different joints and muscle groups rather than testing strength."
Ms Ewing said: "I think we're entering a kind of Kafkaesque world of the DWP where we talk about benefits of moving empty boxes around a room."
Deputy convener Jamie Hepburn, an SNP MSP, said: "Perhaps all of these empty boxes will be utilised for all these people that will have to move out under the so-called bedroom tax."
The committee hearing is the latest instance of MSPs being censured for overstepping the bounds of parliamentary debate.
Mr McMahon was suspended from Holyrood for a day for shouting "you're out of order" at Presiding Officer Tricia Marwick as she attempted to bring the chamber to order.
Labour MSP Helen Eadie was also ordered to "desist" from accusations that European and External Affairs Committee convener Christina McKelvie was trying to "gag" her from raising questions about an independent Scotland's future in the European Union.
Scottish Conservative MSP Alex Johnstone, a member of the welfare committee, said: “I was astonished at the increasingly churlish behaviour of some of the SNP MSPs at today’s committee.
“They were loudly interjecting and barracking the Whitehall officials and generally throwing their toys out of the pram. They displayed nothing but intolerance and discourtesy towards those from the DWP, who at all times provided them with detailed answers to their questions.
“It was a pathetic and puerile performance that was not worthy of any parliament let alone Holyrood. What we witnessed today was the veneer of civility stripped away from the SNP to expose the nasty side of a party that reacts badly and with poor grace to anyone who dares disagree with them.
“The behaviour of their MSPs is made all the worse by the fact they have offered no alternative proposals on how they would pay for benefits and pensions under separation.”
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